Faye (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
said_scarlett) wrote2005-03-22 07:45 am
said_scarlett) wrote2005-03-22 07:45 am
In Defense of Some Minor Characters....
Or: Minor characters I'm tired of seeing fucked over in fan fiction and RPGs. They get no love, and no one sticking up for them much. I'm sick and tired of seeing the less than main characters fucked over, especially with the excuse 'there's not enough of them in canon to get a feel for them!' In these cases, that's really not true.
This isn't aimed at anyone on my Flist, since the fan fiction authors on here are actually good ones with a firm grasp of characterization.
I will readily admit that I have a different take on Peter than most people. It comes through far more in how I play him than how I write him in fan fiction, but it's still there. I am sick and tired of Peter being played/written as this spineless, obviously insane, cowardly, magically-defunct drooling freak who loves to hurt people.
Peter is a Gryffindor. He is brave. While I will admit that his bravery isn't the self sacrificing noble sort, it doesn't have to be. I seem to have missed the memo where 'brave' was a synonym for 'good'. He turns traitor and spy on his friends. When Snape does this, he's brave, because he turned against the bad people. They were still his friends! The only things we know in canon about Wilkes and Rosier? They were killed by Moody, and they were friends with Snape. But Peter does it and he's a coward. It may not have been good, but it was brave. He seeks out Voldemort again, risks himself by Imperio'ing Barty, and raises Voldemort from near-death. Not the actions of a coward.
When he's young, he is not this evil, twisted, creepy young man who sets off warning bells in everyones head. He's the only person they don't suspect of being the traitor! I don't understand the logic that leads so many people to write him as this poster child for the mentally disturbed and creepy. He's certainly on the disturbed side after spending thirteen years as a rat, but even then he's obviously still functional and capable of taking care of himself. He isn't stupid. And he's a pretty damn good wizard. He's mastered the Unforgivables (we see him use two in the books) and he became an animagus, which is extremely difficult and generally takes years. And was a good enough one to keep his form for thirteen years.
He does not like to hurt people. He doesn't want to hurt Harry in the graveyard scene, and he seems pretty sickened whenever Voldemort talks about hurting people. The times that he kills people, it's all at a distance and with great detachment. Those are not the actions of a man who likes hurting people.
Please, for the love of all that is holy, stop making Peter into this horrible character just because you don't like him.
I don't understand where the idea that Bellatrix is a soft, weak and delicate woman who is dependant on the men in her life came from. I don't, but I see it all the time.
The first time we see her, she's on trial to go to Azkaban. She holds her head high and even while being sentenced she rallies for the Dark Lord. She's proud, she's angry, and she's obviously the leader of the little group she's sentenced with. The group which includes her husband. This does not say to me that she's dependant on him in the least.
She tortured people until they lost their minds. She stood defiant in the face of dementors. She is one of Voldemort's top lieutenants. That is not the rank of a woman who is soft or delicate, nor are those the actions of a woman who is. She is the only female Death Eater. Essentially, she's a woman in an all boy's club. A soft or weak woman wouldn't survive, and certainly not flourish. This is more than enough canon evidence to prove that she's a strong and in charge sort of person. Sure she may have a softer side, but that's not all she is.
Why is it that we complain there are no strong female characters in the series, then weaken down the ones we get? It's really starting to bug me. Give Bellatrix the respect she deserves and stop writing her like a little girly-girl.
And here my own personal bias ends. I write/play both of the above characters, so I'm generally a bit more emphatic when it comes to them.
Maybe I'm spoiled by![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
lennaofmidearth's Luna. Maybe I expect too much from writers. But I don't seem to recall Luna being spastic, loud, obnoxious or just plain stupid.
I do realize that Luna's character type is a difficult one, but that doesn't excuse poor characterization. Luna is whimsical, surreal, mysterious and slightly eccentric. She isn't loud in the least, and this is emphasized more times than I can count. She's very fae in her appearance and mannerisms, dreamy and quiet and seemingly in another world. She speaks with a soft and dreamy tone, she looks beneath the surface of things, she's extremely intelligent and she is very much aware of what's going on around her. She simply chooses not to acknowledge this. She does not snap back when insulted, she does not bemoan and cry or scream about it, she doesn't do anything. All through canon she simply ignores nearly all negativity directed to her. She's extremely polite. She doesn't even use nicknames, instead calling Ron by 'Ronald'. This could be something that's singular to Ron, but we don't see her addressing anyone else with a shortened version of their name through the book.
And while her beliefs may be strange, she has a quiet conviction in them that's steady and unwavering. At the end of OotP, she's the only person who can comfort Harry in the least. Again, she goes about this in a very quiet and understated way, almost speaking in riddles. There's an aura of mystery about her, and I have never seen that put across by anyone other thanlennaofmideath. (Who also has the best Luna PB ever.) And that really upsets me, because she's such an interesting character with so many possibilities. And I do hold with the theory that if anyone is going to turn out to be a Seer, it's Luna. All through the books it's subtley displayed that she just knows things.
I also don't understand why she's so often portrayed as half blooded, when it's canon that she's pureblood.
If you can't write Luna proplery, please don't write her at all.
Where is there any evidence that Pansy is a lost little lamb with a heart of gold, trying to make it in the tough Slytherin world? She's the ringleader in practically everything she does. She goes out of her way to be a bitch. She's petty and cruel and spiteful and snobby. You want to have your redeemed Slytherin? (Which in itself is a touchy subject with me, since the whole thing is rarely done well.) That's fine. But it isn't Pansy, I'm sorry. She may not be evil, but she's not secretly this nice and loving person who will embrace all muggleborns as her kin.
She isn't acting or faking it all. And it isn't just that she's going along with things. She instigates them. When it comes to Slytherins, they're cunning and crafty and self serving. She's not just going along with things to fit in. She's the person people have to go along with. And she's not stupid, either. She's more witty than Draco, and she makes it to Prefect.
She's also not gorgeous. She has, and I quote 'a face like a pug'. She's probably cute in her way, and I'm sure there are people who find her beautiful, but she's not drop dead gorgeous. And bless the authors/players who realize and acknowledge this.
And so ends this rant. It filled my head last night as I was surfing the net desperately trying to get to sleep at one in the morning. I still somehow managed to wake up at 7:30.
This isn't aimed at anyone on my Flist, since the fan fiction authors on here are actually good ones with a firm grasp of characterization.
I will readily admit that I have a different take on Peter than most people. It comes through far more in how I play him than how I write him in fan fiction, but it's still there. I am sick and tired of Peter being played/written as this spineless, obviously insane, cowardly, magically-defunct drooling freak who loves to hurt people.
Peter is a Gryffindor. He is brave. While I will admit that his bravery isn't the self sacrificing noble sort, it doesn't have to be. I seem to have missed the memo where 'brave' was a synonym for 'good'. He turns traitor and spy on his friends. When Snape does this, he's brave, because he turned against the bad people. They were still his friends! The only things we know in canon about Wilkes and Rosier? They were killed by Moody, and they were friends with Snape. But Peter does it and he's a coward. It may not have been good, but it was brave. He seeks out Voldemort again, risks himself by Imperio'ing Barty, and raises Voldemort from near-death. Not the actions of a coward.
When he's young, he is not this evil, twisted, creepy young man who sets off warning bells in everyones head. He's the only person they don't suspect of being the traitor! I don't understand the logic that leads so many people to write him as this poster child for the mentally disturbed and creepy. He's certainly on the disturbed side after spending thirteen years as a rat, but even then he's obviously still functional and capable of taking care of himself. He isn't stupid. And he's a pretty damn good wizard. He's mastered the Unforgivables (we see him use two in the books) and he became an animagus, which is extremely difficult and generally takes years. And was a good enough one to keep his form for thirteen years.
He does not like to hurt people. He doesn't want to hurt Harry in the graveyard scene, and he seems pretty sickened whenever Voldemort talks about hurting people. The times that he kills people, it's all at a distance and with great detachment. Those are not the actions of a man who likes hurting people.
Please, for the love of all that is holy, stop making Peter into this horrible character just because you don't like him.
I don't understand where the idea that Bellatrix is a soft, weak and delicate woman who is dependant on the men in her life came from. I don't, but I see it all the time.
The first time we see her, she's on trial to go to Azkaban. She holds her head high and even while being sentenced she rallies for the Dark Lord. She's proud, she's angry, and she's obviously the leader of the little group she's sentenced with. The group which includes her husband. This does not say to me that she's dependant on him in the least.
She tortured people until they lost their minds. She stood defiant in the face of dementors. She is one of Voldemort's top lieutenants. That is not the rank of a woman who is soft or delicate, nor are those the actions of a woman who is. She is the only female Death Eater. Essentially, she's a woman in an all boy's club. A soft or weak woman wouldn't survive, and certainly not flourish. This is more than enough canon evidence to prove that she's a strong and in charge sort of person. Sure she may have a softer side, but that's not all she is.
Why is it that we complain there are no strong female characters in the series, then weaken down the ones we get? It's really starting to bug me. Give Bellatrix the respect she deserves and stop writing her like a little girly-girl.
And here my own personal bias ends. I write/play both of the above characters, so I'm generally a bit more emphatic when it comes to them.
Maybe I'm spoiled by
lennaofmidearth's Luna. Maybe I expect too much from writers. But I don't seem to recall Luna being spastic, loud, obnoxious or just plain stupid. I do realize that Luna's character type is a difficult one, but that doesn't excuse poor characterization. Luna is whimsical, surreal, mysterious and slightly eccentric. She isn't loud in the least, and this is emphasized more times than I can count. She's very fae in her appearance and mannerisms, dreamy and quiet and seemingly in another world. She speaks with a soft and dreamy tone, she looks beneath the surface of things, she's extremely intelligent and she is very much aware of what's going on around her. She simply chooses not to acknowledge this. She does not snap back when insulted, she does not bemoan and cry or scream about it, she doesn't do anything. All through canon she simply ignores nearly all negativity directed to her. She's extremely polite. She doesn't even use nicknames, instead calling Ron by 'Ronald'. This could be something that's singular to Ron, but we don't see her addressing anyone else with a shortened version of their name through the book.
And while her beliefs may be strange, she has a quiet conviction in them that's steady and unwavering. At the end of OotP, she's the only person who can comfort Harry in the least. Again, she goes about this in a very quiet and understated way, almost speaking in riddles. There's an aura of mystery about her, and I have never seen that put across by anyone other than
lennaofmideath. (Who also has the best Luna PB ever.) And that really upsets me, because she's such an interesting character with so many possibilities. And I do hold with the theory that if anyone is going to turn out to be a Seer, it's Luna. All through the books it's subtley displayed that she just knows things.I also don't understand why she's so often portrayed as half blooded, when it's canon that she's pureblood.
If you can't write Luna proplery, please don't write her at all.
Where is there any evidence that Pansy is a lost little lamb with a heart of gold, trying to make it in the tough Slytherin world? She's the ringleader in practically everything she does. She goes out of her way to be a bitch. She's petty and cruel and spiteful and snobby. You want to have your redeemed Slytherin? (Which in itself is a touchy subject with me, since the whole thing is rarely done well.) That's fine. But it isn't Pansy, I'm sorry. She may not be evil, but she's not secretly this nice and loving person who will embrace all muggleborns as her kin.
She isn't acting or faking it all. And it isn't just that she's going along with things. She instigates them. When it comes to Slytherins, they're cunning and crafty and self serving. She's not just going along with things to fit in. She's the person people have to go along with. And she's not stupid, either. She's more witty than Draco, and she makes it to Prefect.
She's also not gorgeous. She has, and I quote 'a face like a pug'. She's probably cute in her way, and I'm sure there are people who find her beautiful, but she's not drop dead gorgeous. And bless the authors/players who realize and acknowledge this.
And so ends this rant. It filled my head last night as I was surfing the net desperately trying to get to sleep at one in the morning. I still somehow managed to wake up at 7:30.
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Above all things, though, I loathe the little Suethors who write Peter out completely because he is OMGTEHEBIL!!1! Hello? No story without Peter!
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That is probably one of my biggest pet peeves. Peter is my favorite character, and I am determined to give him the love he so terribly deserves. *hugs the Peter* I'm sorry that he's not a 'hawt' bad guy like Lucius, but that's not what it's about.
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I think the thing that baffles me most about this fandom is the insane love for Draco. I just. Don't. Get it. He doesn't come across as particularly witty or overly intelligent in the books, and I don't think he's a terribly well developed character. Nothing like Snape, who fascinates me.
I guess it's because I don't find Tom Felton at all attractive and have no wish to see him in leather pants. *shrugs*
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Yeah, I don't get the Draco love either. I mean, I like him as a snarky little bastard, but not as anything else.
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Well, that's a fairly insulting depiction of fellow fans, imho.
Everyone likes different characters for different reasons, and if you don't warm to some, cool, but perhaps if you're that 'baffled' by fandom interest in any, you might want to look into reading some essays/meta on the subject(s), rather than writing off others as 'insane' or shallow.
It's the equivalent of saying: 'Ah, you're a Snape fan. You must be in love with Alan Rickman and think that he's going to make out with Harry in the next book.'
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I suppose I don't spend enough time in the fandom anymore, and I have to admit, HP is not my main fandom like it was two years ago. Most of my HP time is lurking around the Sue communities, so I'm sure that biases my view.
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I recommend trip_jinx or sistermagpie's journal for any interesting thoughts on Draco.
I honestly do not understand the intense outpouring of Draco love I seem to see.
I think perhaps some of it is prompted by the at times, rigidly black and white presentation of morality in the books; which people can find hypocritical, I think. Draco's a jerk, but there aren't many 'good' characters who couldn't match him pound for pound in the cruelty stakes, for example.
HP is not my main fandom like it was two years ago.
Yeah, I'm getting a little tired of it, myself.
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Draco's a jerk, but there aren't many 'good' characters who couldn't match him pound for pound in the cruelty stakes, for example.
An excellent point. I think I need to read OotP again, because I don't think the good side came off too well in that, and reading the_snarkery just seems to remind me of that.
The fandom is just so gigantic, and it's really failed to hold my interest like I thought it would. I'm still a bit into LotR, but I seem to have abandon most things for TDS and politics.
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Always nice to know people are. *off to post on most recent thread*
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I see a lot of Movie!Draco fans, sure (along with a lot of Alan Rickman/Daniel Radcliffe/Emma Watson fans) but I don't think that redeemed Draco = necessarily fanon!Draco, or that liking the movie version equals causing the fanonisation of the book character (there were lame Draco fics loooong before the movie casting, much like the lame Every Other Character fics.)
And forgive me if I've misquoted/misunderstood clara_belle, but she appeared to dislike the canon version, which is of course, her pregogative, but criticising the fanon version and suggesting that canon!fans are just confusing the two, which I felt was slightly unfair.
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Ciara and I had gotten off the discussion on fan fiction, and were just chatting about characterization and affection to characters in general. I'm a fan of Draco, which she knows. It wasn't a slur against fans of the canon character.
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I'm a fan of Draco, which she knows. It wasn't a slur against fans of the canon character.
Ah. Then I have misunderstood!
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People actually WRITE her that way??? Do they not READ CANON? Ugh!
love, lore
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Two of my favorite characters being stood up for! This must be a record.
I think the reason that Peter and Luna are so misunderstood is that not alot is known about them. Peter's background is a complete mystery: we don't know his blood heritage, we don't know what house he was in, we have no idea what it was that made him turn to Voldemort. What we do have is the fact that he was friends with James, Sirius, and Remus; a fact that is poorly represented in fandom and even movie-verse.
Peter recieves no sympathy. In fact he's more hated then Voldemort. His characterization has been so dragged through the mud that it's difficult to find an acurate portrayl. One of the reasons I'm looking forward to the sixth book is that J.K. Rowling has said she is finally revealing how it was that James and Lily were betrayed. Some actual fact is going to surface and people should be seeing Peter in a whole knew light.
I also have this theory that Peter is the Half-Blood Prince, but that's another explanation all together. ;)
When fandom hears "crazy" they automatically assume that means "wacky, bouncy, all over the place, crazy." Luna is none of those things. Yes, she's got an odd sense of fashion. Yes, she doesn't care about what people say about her. She knows everything there is to know about the people around her and she has an odd way of showing up exactly when she is needed. She is a very strong girl. Her conviction for creatures and ideals that most characters believe are laughable is so strong that even when she is bullied her belief never wavers. She also has faith, something that is missed in most of the other books. She has faith that the dead are never far away but "just behind the veil". It is the only sentiment that forces Harry to feel anything but self-pity.
I applaud you for your defense of characters that are under represented and seldom understood. Wonderful characterizations!
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I know a few other people who have him down as the HBP, too.
That's pretty much it, with Luna, right there. And it's upsetting and sad, but people will continue to write what they want. The main characters get fucked over in fan fiction and RPGs enough, and are crusaded for enough, I thought it was time for some of the lesser knowns to get spoken for.
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HP does lend itself to a lot of leeway with things. People can twist facts and can slip in what they want, or make things say what they want them to say. And you're right, about the agenda thing.
Sad indeed.
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I'm just curious because I don't recall it. Though I don't recall JK mentioning any other female Death Eaters either.
Nice rant by the way, I enjoyed reading it.
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I will say, though, that Luna is not always quiet and dreamy, though it is the predominant characteristic. For example, her laughter is described as "screams of mirth." In fact, one of my pet peeves is Luna as one dimensional Trelawney in training.
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Like I said, I don't expect anyone to write them exactly as I do.
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thanks for the lovely rant. all I can say is agree, agree, agree. :)
AND you've made me interested in Peter more than before. I hadn't written him off or thought of him in the cardboard way that others seem to have but he wasn't one of the characters that got in my head. will go hunting for some decent fic about him.
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Yes! Go forth and read Peter!fic! There's some good stuff out there. He's my favorite character, and I am very much in favor of spreading the Peter love. As was said earlier, he's more hated than Voldemort, and for less reason!
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I wrote a ficlet where a minor character points out what House characteristics cause members of that house to go bad: for Gryffindors, it's thinking they know best and doing things "for your own good". Hadn't considered doing any Marauder-era fics, but if I did, that's how I'd write Peter.
Luna stupid? Weird - she's a Ravenclaw, after all, and while she may believe some impossible things, she also has a knack for being right when others aren't.
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It boggles my mind.
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Your characterisations are ones I've tried to convince others of for the longest time. I like my Bella insane, but the one people are afraid of for good reason. I like my Peter not!evil, even though he's the most effective villan in the books. I like my Luna... er... Luna like? You described her best. And, well, why does everyone think that Pansy is a pansy?
I love you. You are wonderful.
(And I'm not pimping this (http://www.thedarkarts.org/authors/telepwen/kohelet.html).)
That Snape/Luna
Good stuff!
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Peter is a very effective villian, and I hate when people make him anything else. Yes, he's a bad guy. He managed to get the Potter's killed, get Sirius thrown in Azkaban, Imperio Bary Crouch and ressurect the fucking Dark Lord. By himself. How is this a pathetic and useless character?
I do believe I love you to!
*bookmarks link*
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Huh?
Most of the fics that I've read where she's been centre stage has her as a batshit! crazy, AK weilding sociopath. I'd say that most writers (that I've stumbled across) treat Bella as a female Sirius Black; powerful, haughty and a little too arrogant for her own good.
I agree with you on the subject of Pettigrew though; he was a friend before he turned, and he is brave to go rogue, and to damn his friend for a crime that he didn't commit, to enable VMo to kill his other friend and wife (leaving his son an orphan) and probably gearing up to kill Lupin with his silver hand is no pussy. He may not have been the wizard that James and Sirius were in high school, but he was canny enough to master the animagus form, so mad props from me.
The other two - yeah, they are defined personalities in canon, and that's all I gotta say.
Re: Huh?
I hate the idea that because Peter is a bad guy (and not a 'hawt' one, like Lucius) that he's somehow the lowest of the low and worth nothing but disgust. I love Peter, and I love him as he is, which is a brave - if self serving - villian who has more balls than most of the Death Eaters.
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You sort of boggled me with the idea of people actually writing Bellatrix like that. Just because she is female does not mean she is going to be a precious little snowflake, made of glass and submissive Mrs. Death Eater. A strong woman doesn't have to be masculine, she can be elegant and feminine and refined without being any less ballsy per se. Good lord, I hope I never see any of this delicate petal Bellatrix, because I fear there will be gouging out of eyes with sporks.
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here via d.s.
Hear Hear to minor characters!
here from d_s
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She's very nice to her friends, apparently.
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Being nice to people of your own group is not exactly a sterling recommendation, but it's better than say, Voldemort (of course, so is most behaviour!) and it's not unprecedented in the HPverse when applied to other, more positively portrayed characters.
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The trio is pretty nice to pretty much everyone, really. Hemrione doesn't get on with Luna all that much, but she's not outright mean to her. Ron and Harry are nice with the rest of Gryffindor, the Hufflepuffs we see them interacting with, and almost all of the DA.
We really only see Pansy being actually 'nice' to Draco.
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But those are all their own groups. (Apart from the Hufflepuffs, and I think it's interesting that they've come closest to disliking Harry and Ron, apparently, and vice-versa.)
So many people speak so highly of them and claim to be close with them, I think it's hard to say they were only nice to each other.
I don't know. They were charming, funny, handsome (well, half of them, apparently) which naturally people respond well to.
I don't think even said people who speak so highly of them would describe them as 'nice', particularly. But then, I don't get the feeling 'niceness' is a valued trait in the WW.
(I do like Peter, however.)
The trio is pretty nice to pretty much everyone, really.
Hmm. I don't think they're exactly aggressive to people, but I don't see much of a case for active friendliness. They seem to keep themselves to themselves and quickly close ranks against anyone with a dissenting opinion. Which I guess would describe the Slytherins also, leading back to my point.
I mean, Pansy seems to be quick to criticise the Gryffindors, as well as those associating with them, but that's no worse than the Gryffindors' haste to criticise Slytherin. And Pansy at least seems able to limit her more negative actions to rude words, whereas the Trio can become violent.
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With MWPP, a large number of people speak highly of them on a personal level. Peers, people they worked with, and people tangentially associated with them. It's very rare that people speak kindly of people that weren't nice to them. We don't see anything of the Marauders other than through Harry's mind, after him being told or shown things. We have to rely on filtered information through an unreliable narrator.
There's quite a bit of ddissension within the DA. We see plenty of causes of scuffles and whatnot, but they're generally limited to typical teenage things. I don't see much 'closing off to those who don't agree'. Over large issues such as Voldemort, well yes. But that's just normal, and not really an argument for whether or not someone is a nice person. Again, it all goes back to having an unreliable narrator.
Pansy joined the Inquisitional Squad. She's the ring leader of a rather cruel group of girls. She's vicious towards everyone who isn't a Slytherin - going out of her way to pick on people she hardly even knows, as shown in GoF, and is friendly towards no one but Draco. I can't accept that as pointing to her having a core personality of being a nice and kind person.
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It appears to be a matter of interpretation. Iirc, Zacharias Smith questioned and got threatened and hexed for it. Adding to that the treatment of Marietta and the end mass hexing on the train, I actually find the DA a much more dangerous and malicious group than the Inquisitorial Squad.
I don't see any of the Inquisitorial Squad has having particularly kind personalities, definitely.
My point is that I don't see kindness in many characters in this series, so I guess the logical conclusion for me is that kindness is something either the culture or the author doesn't find valuable, in comparison to other traits.
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